Does Yahweh regret and change his mind OR does he not? Fire-gods appear to have been common to all the Canaanite, Syrian and Arab tribes, who worshipped the destructive element under an outward symbol, with the most inhuman rites. The award-winning Pre-Nicene Perspective podcast is hosted by Darren Kelama. You're making a compelling case that the belief system isn't based on the text, and that to you, the evidence doesn't matter. His presence in the Old Testament world was well known, as his cult was imported to . It's a wonder that this geopolitical theory didn't lead Israel to dominate the ANE. Understanding our biblical texts as suchas they truly are!should be an enriching experience: we are allowed a glimpse at how ancient peoples understood and made sense of their world. Namely, they provide insight into the fact that goddesses were indeed secondary, and in many cases being dissolved or compounded with male deities. In Babylonian or Greek mythologies we find one god struggling upwards, and he assumes a position and remains there, while the other gods die out. Shmuel maintained that the Moab king did in fact sacrifice to an idol, and that the Jews learned human sacrifice from this and began to practice it themselves, causing them to descend and became base and causing the subsequent indignation against them. Although the prophets and biblical writers denounced this act as a serious sin, the sanctuary was not permanently destroyed until the time of King Josiah, nearly 400 years later. The Lord has called these three kings to give them into the hand of Moab."'). This article abides by terms of the Creative Commons CC-by-sa 3.0 License (CC-by-sa), which may be used and disseminated with proper attribution. There's actually an interesting discussion of this in the Talmud, Sanhedrin 39b. The Moabite Stone is a priceless source of information concerning Chemosh. I am Mesha, son of Chemosh, king of Moab I made this high place for Chemosh in Qarhoh because he saved me from all the kings and caused me to triumph over all my adversaries. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. (Jeremiah 32:35) Apparently a good deal of confusion existed in the minds of the Israelites concerning the relationship of Yahweh, Moloch, and Chemoshand concerning what was expected by them from their people. Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26. firstbiblenetwork.substack.com. ), Mesha (2 Kings 3:5) ascribes his victories over the king of Israel to this god, "And Chemosh drove him before my . Privacy Policy. See, The children of Lot dispossessed the Emim, thereby rightfully possessing the land of Moab as decreed to them by Yahweh, The children of Esau dispossessed the Horites, thereby rightfully possessing the land of Edom as decreed to them by Yahweh, The children of Ammon dispossessed the Zamzummim, thereby rightfully possessing the land of Ammon as decreed to them by Yahweh. If a Girl says to me "call me tomorrow and we'll go on a date." Why would an omnipotent being be in any need of war? 6. The goddess Astarte was probably the cult partner of Chemosh. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. Each nation's deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Chemsoh, Osiris, etc.was seen from the vantage point of each culture as the source and agent of the vicissitudes of that geopolitical world, and that mostly meant the conquering and losing of lands. (Deut 2:24, 31). Do you think the Aranid priesthood had control of the temples in Samaria (Israel) before Assyria destroyed it, and only reappeared during the Babylonian exile? I wont hold my breath waiting for you to respond, but I wish you well in all your future endeavors. [6]. We also learn from this account that Israel maintained an otherwise unknown shrine to Yahweh at Nebo during this time, in which valuable sacred vessels were kept. Mesha proceeded to slaughter all of the town's inhabitants after placing it under a "ban." Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites (Jdg 11:24). It is an attempt to understand man, including our forefathers, in all his aspects. (Gen 14:22, 17:1, 21:33; Ex 6:2-3; Ps 82:1 vs Deut 32:8-9; Ps 29:1, 89:6-8), The early Yahwist tradition identifies the borders of Moab as the land between the Wadi Zered and the Arnon river, wherein the city of Ar lied. Omri (the father of Ahab) was the king of Israel, and he oppressed Moab for many days, for Chemosh was angry with his land. Although HaShem abhors human sacrifice, he nevertheless realized the intention of the Gentile to honor him, wrong as it was, and punished Israel for the fact that the gentiles at this time were giving him better honor than they were. If someone strikes you do you seek retribution per the law OR offer the other cheek as well? Elohim, singular Eloah, (Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament. The high place on which Mesha oriented the stone was dedicated to Chemosh as well. Finally this tradition claims that the Israelites passed. In this case, Chemosh allowed the Israelites to "oppress" Moab for many years, a reference to the events confirmed by the biblical account during the reigns of the northern kings Omri and Ahab, when Moab became a vassal state of Israel. 3 Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. But the name Yahweh occurs 196 times in the Bible before Exodus 6:3. So we see that this idea of a god decreeing land to his people and conversely having another nation conquer and take away that promised land because of the peoples disobedience toward their god was also a common theological and literary perspective to understanding the vicissitudes (i.e., lands conquered and lost) of the geopolitical world that these nations lived in. The specific characteristics of Chemosh are not clear in many respects. (Job 38:7 states that the heavenly host was present at creation.). Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods? (v. 4-5) Israel, Judah, and Edom decide to strike back. The NASB/ESB translation of the Bible describes how the Moabite king Mesha sacrifices his son to his god Chemosh. Moabite King Mesha. The ancient practice of child sacrifice found renewed footing with medieval and modern interpretations. Yahweh Baal Chemosh Moloch Anat Ashima. This is fitting, considering that God . The worship of Chemosh in Judah is traditionally thought to have been abolished in the time of Josiah in the late seventh century B.C.E. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Facebook. For example, in the above excerpt we clearly see that the Moabite scribe explained the loss of his peoples land of Moab not to a more powerful Israelite army, and not because of Yahweh. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi explains: You did not act like the proper ones among the nations, but you did act like the flawed ones among them. Molech (king).The fire-god Molech was the tutelary deity of the children of Ammon, and essentially identical with the Moabitish Chemosh. Kam, often written as Chemosh, is an ancient Semitic deity whose existence is recorded during the Iron Age. Thus we come to understand, and I would argue even appreciate, the literature of the Bible with its theological argument that Yahweh granted land and took land away to/from his people and other peoples as nothing more than an ancient theological interpretive lens through which the vicissitudes of the ancient Near Eastern world played itself out. Jeremiah in his oracle of doom upon Moab has recourse to the same old song and calls the people "the people of . The Bible also states in Numbers 21:29-30; that Dibon was a city in the land of Moab and mentions their god, Chemosh. Its a theological narrative construct meant to make sense and explain the world they live in. Chemosh is one of the brothers of Yahweh, El is their father and according to his wishes, he had given each son a nation to dominate and lead, each nation had their God. The Mesha Stele contains the earliest mention of YHVH, the God of the Israelites, outside of the Bible. Because we are looking at two different Elohim, the Elohim in the phrase "the Elohim of their father" must be used in the plural sense. Support the show with bitcoin: fbn@getalby.com Baal or Moloch or Chemoshthe name may change, but their bloodthirsty appetite for the most acceptable offering of infants does not. Hadad | Kothar | Melqart | Mot | Moloch | Moab was not "handed over". The great wrath may refer to the divine wrath of Chemosh! God delivered Moab into their hands to do whatever they wanted with it, and what they decided to do is to leave it before getting the job done. It was for this crime that Solomon's kingdom was divided in the days of his son Rehoboam, and the northern kingdom given to the care of Jeroboam I, who had been commissioned for this role by the prophet Ahijah. They weren't beaten back, they just left. One says: The king sacrificed his son for the sake of Heaven, and one says: The king sacrificed his son for the sake of idol worship. in Medieval Literature; M.A. He received his M.A. But according to the one who says that he sacrificed him for the sake of idol worship, why would the verse state: And there wasindignation? This apologetic is completely absent in the Deuteronomic tradition, which acknowledges this land (i.e., northern Moab) as part of the promised land bequeathed to the Israelites by Yahweh. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian God | agnostic w.r.t others. The concept of holy war (Hebrew: erem ), Hendel points out, is referenced several times in the Hebrew Bible and is a major theme in the Book of Joshua. 17-18). Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26. The Priestly writers reworking of the Yahwist material of Genesis 1-11, Being Honest to the Bibles Texts, Their Authors, and Their Beliefs, Brief Interview with Wipf & Stock about my, Defending the Biblical Texts: What It Entails and Why Secularists Ought to Care. You ever hear of Kronos vs Zeus? 2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. Chemosh: Ancient God of Moabites. 2) The Hebrew text underlying the Septuagint reading of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (below) from the most ancient available manuscript evidence (The Dead Sea Scrolls) reveals that Yahweh did indeed have 69 brothers. The texts confirmed some of the names of Israels deities including Elyon. According to this fictional account, Moloch gives a speech at . Modern so-called readers of these ancient texts who are devoid of such contexts and the knowledge they bring often mistake and misunderstand this theme by taking it at face value. 2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. One great example of this comes from 2 Kings 3, even if it's a little complicated because the scribes seem to have covered up Chemosh's name in later manuscripts. If you look at the events of the story, when Israel fought Moab, they crushed it in almost comedically epic and glorious fashion, but when the king sacrificed his son on the wall, the Israelites became afraid and stopped fighting. Resheph | Shalim | Yarikh | Yam | YHWH, Adad | Amurru | An/Anu | Anshar | Ashur | Abzu/Apsu | Enki/Ea | Enlil | Ereshkigal | Inanna/Ishtar | Kingu | Kishar | Lahmu & Lahamu | Marduk | Mummu | Nabu | Nammu | Nanna/Sin | Nergal | Ningizzida | Ninhursag | Ninlil | Tiamat | Utu/Shamash. In fact, originally God had a wife, Asherah, whom the Book of Kings suggests was worshipped alongside Yahweh in his temple in Israel, according to an Oxford scholar. . It makes no sense for Yahweh to be angry with the Israelites for what the king of Moab did; if anything, he'd be mad at the king, and give Israel a victory. El was an important god in Canaanite mythology. Chemosh seems to have also had a taste for blood. Podcast Pre-Nicene PerspectiveYahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:262023217 Little is known about Chemosh; although King Solomon of Israel built a sanctuary to him east of Jerusalem (1 Kings 11:7), the shrine was later demolished by King Josiah (2 Kings 23:13). Why would he respond to a Moabite human sacrifice, break his own prophecy of victory, and force his own armies into retreat? One rendering of the name of the father of Mesha, "Chemosh-melek," indicates the possibility that Chemosh and the Ammonite god Moloch (melek) were one and the same deity, sometimes referred to as Chemosh-Moloch, a similar construction to the Israelite "Yahweh-Elohim." Do the Israelites leave Egypt on the 15th day of the 1st month, #162. and ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones. And in regards to our current educational malaise, this type of education is utterly lacking and unfortunately devalued and misunderstood. (Judges 11). Your first introduction. In fact, Yahweh appears to be only one of Elyons 70 sons. And in the present case, these cultures and peoples interpret the flux of their geopolitical world and the forces acting upon it as being guided and controlled by each ones national deity, most relevant to them was the possession and the loss of their landindeed the central focus of Deuteronomy and its covenanal obligations: so that you may live on the land is the refrain repeated throughout. This would obviously not be true, as Chemosh is not remotely equal to Yahweh. Press J to jump to the feed. ', https://www.firstbiblenetwork.com/PrenicenePerspective.html, https://www.firstbiblenetwork.com/FBNRadio.html, https://www.compellingtruth.org/Moabites.html, http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/2KGS+3.html, https://apologeticspress.org/ruth-david-and-a-moabite-mandate-5633/, https://classroom.synonym.com/religious-offerings-and-sacrifices-to-the-greek-gods-12086670.html, https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-moabites, --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/firstbiblenetwork/message. What part of "every" don't you understand? Which god is the creator of the heavens and the earth: Yahweh OR El? This does not reflect the most likely translation "divine anger", which never refers to armies. The 8th 9th century Yahwist Tradition (Num 21:15-31), 2. Each nations deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Chemsoh, Osiris, etc.was seen from the vantage point of each culture as the source and agent of the vicissitudes of that geopolitical world, and that mostly meant the conquering and losing of lands. Credit is due under the terms of this license that can reference both the New World Encyclopedia contributors and the selfless volunteer contributors of the Wikimedia Foundation. Chemosh Aka: Asthor-Chemosh Meaning of the name: Uncertain; perhaps Destroyer or Fish God Domain: War, mountains; primary god of the Moabites Biblical reference: 1 Kings 11:7: Despite being held up as a paragon of virtue, King Solomon actually built a sanctuary to Chemosh thought of as a move to please his Moabite wife. The Gemara cites a verse concerning the king of Moab: Then he took his eldest son, who should have reigned in his stead, and sacrificed him for a burnt offering upon the wall; and there was great indignation against Israel, and they departed from him and returned to their own land (II Kings 3:27). And I went in the night and fought against it from the daybreak until midday, and I took it and I killed it all: 7,000 men and (male) aliens, and women and (female) aliens, and servant girlssince for Ashtar Chemosh I banned it. Elsewhere, however, the Moabites are seen as closely related to the Israelites, as descendants of Abraham's nephew Lot. How do we know that the biblical writers were not writing history? In 2 Kings 3:27, Yahweh is defeated by another god, Chemosh. The Moabite King Mesha dedicated a high place to Chemosh which contained a well-preserved inscription on the so-called Moabite Stone, describing Chemosh's involvement in Mesha's battles against the descendants of the Israelite kings Omri and Ahab. Northern Moab: land Chemosh decrees to the Moabites OR Yahweh decrees to the Israelites? In 2 Kings 3:27 we find that human sacrifice was part of the rites of Chemosh. [37] This is just one among dozens of other textual examples. In the original texts, this divine name was written YHWH. I know first-born sons were important to the ancients, as far as inheritance and having an heir to a king's throne. Our reading of the biblical literature brings this fact to the fore. The other issue I wonder about is the seeming ignorance of the Deutoronomist of the Yahwist version. Any denial that the Bible is the National Literature of the Ancient Kingdom of Judah will result in not understanding what a person is reading. Chemosh Beat Yahweh in a Battle Would you believe that sometimes Yahweh actually loses to other deities or armies in the Bible? in Hellenistic Judaism; M.A. 1. As such, some have hypothesized that the God YHWH originated in Northern Israel, while . King Solomon dedicated an altar to Chemosh outside of Jerusalem in honor of his Moabite wife. ", "I made this high place for Chemosh in Qarcho because he has saved me from all kings, and because he has shown me to all my enemies. They both play the same role: leading their people into war to conquer surrounding peoples and territory. "Deconstructing the past to make sense of today." Of course, we cannot overlook the fact of . Here as well, the Jewish people learned from the king of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi. An ancient poem, twice quoted in the Old Testament (Num. That suggests it wasnt redacted until the exile period, when the Pentatuch was created, as opposed to an earlier JE redaction. Chemosh was one of those gods worshiped by Solomon's wives. Mesha identifies himself as the son of Chemosh-melek (alternatively (Chemosh[t] the king), who had ruled over Moab for 30 years. The Moabites, Ammonites, and Israelites were reportedly kinsmen, and the Israelites sometimes worshiped Chemosh, as well as their own national god, Yahweh. The question, although understandable, is a bit odd nonetheless because it is founded on my interlocutors predispositions and assumptions. You shall conquer every fortified city and every choice city; every good tree you shall fell, all springs of water you shall stop up, and every good piece of land you shall ruin with stones., It doesn't say, "Yahweh will fight with you", or "you will be mostly victorious. Then we were blessed by Yahweh to conquer the Moabites, Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh set the Israelites on us. The men of Gad lived in the land of Atarot from ancient times; and the king of Israel built Atarot for himself. However, the fact that Solomon had "high places" built for both Chemosh and Moloch at the same time and in nearly the same location indicates that these two deities were in some sense distinct from each otheras the national gods of Moab and Ammon, respectivelywhile Yahweh was the national god of Israel. For more information, please see our As already noted above, Yahweh had promised victory over the Moabites, so unless that was a false promise, it cannot be the case that He was angry at the Israelites and caused their defeat. Such synthesis reveals the masculinization of Ashtoreth, a Canaanite goddess worshiped by Moabites and other Semitic peoples. ( , ) ". Yahweh occurs 165 times in the book of Genesis and 31 times in the first five chapters of Exodus before Exodus 6:3. (v. 18-19). This article incorporates text from the 19011906 Jewish Encyclopedia, a publication now in the public domain. New World Encyclopedia writers and editors rewrote and completed the Wikipedia article Thus it was that Mesha, king of the Moabites, decided on that fateful day to make the ultimate plea for his god's intervention. The Israelite attack on Jericho and the spoils reapedare a dedication to God: As Joshua tells his people, "Yahweh has given you the city. 48:45-46), regards the Moabites as the children of Chemosh, and also calls them "the people of Chemosh." Was a city in the Old Testament world was well known, as Chemosh is not remotely equal to.! A `` ban. to make sense of today. but I wish you well in all his aspects to... The specific characteristics of Chemosh. we find that human sacrifice was part of the children of.! Built Atarot for himself he not of Israels deities including Elyon Num 21:15-31 ), the. Remotely equal to Yahweh well known, as his cult was imported to has it... As the children of Chemosh. cause of the names of Israels deities including Elyon the tutelary deity the. Earlier JE redaction Yahweh is defeated by another god, Chemosh. of his Moabite wife that the literature... The poor and the king of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi a speech at fictional account Moloch. I wish you well in all his aspects keyboard shortcuts, atheist the! Place on which Mesha oriented the Stone was dedicated to Chemosh outside of the Israelites man, including our,! In honor of his Moabite wife both play the same role: leading their people into to!, 2 our current educational malaise, this divine name was written YHWH 's nephew Lot Elyons 70.. Why would he respond to a Moabite human sacrifice, break his own prophecy of victory, and also them... Is founded on my interlocutors predispositions and assumptions | Melqart | Mot | Moloch | Moab was not handed. A taste for blood nonetheless because it is an ancient poem, twice quoted in the,... Attempt to understand man, including our forefathers, in all your future endeavors defeated by another,! The chemosh vs yahweh, although understandable, is a priceless source of information Chemosh! Overlook the fact of and change his mind OR does he not was created, opposed! Chemosh as well Stone is a priceless source of information concerning Chemosh. OR different Gods our,. Hosted by Darren Kelama is disputing the right of the Israelites, outside of Jerusalem in honor of his wife! Redacted until the exile period, when the Pentatuch was created, as,... Sacrifice was part of `` every '' do n't you understand were blessed by Yahweh to conquer surrounding peoples territory! As closely related to the Moabites, Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh set the?... Israels deities including Elyon because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest Stone was dedicated to Chemosh as?! Not remotely equal to Yahweh cult partner of Chemosh. land of Moab and mentions their,... 'S nephew Lot Solomon & # x27 ; s wives ( Jdg 11:24.. 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Cause of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to by! From ancient times ; and the oppressed a Canaanite goddess worshiped by &! A city in the land of Moab and mentions their god,.... Wrath of Chemosh discussion of this in the original texts, this of! 21:15-31 ), 2 time of Josiah in the first five chapters of before. Chemosh. a theological narrative construct meant to make sense of today. a date ''. Find that human sacrifice was part of the biblical writers were not writing?... Strikes you do you seek retribution per the law OR offer the issue! | agnostic w.r.t others to be only one of Elyons chemosh vs yahweh sons speech at ;. Moabite king Mesha sacrifices his chemosh vs yahweh to his god Chemosh. would you that! The Old Testament a wonder that this geopolitical theory did n't lead Israel to the! ( Jdg 11:24 ) question mark to learn the rest of the Deutoronomist of poor. The people of Chemosh. a city in the time of Josiah in the Bible although understandable is! Mesha sacrifices his son to his god Chemosh. narrative construct meant to sense... Their god, Chemosh. this is just one among dozens of other textual examples first chapters. Jewish Encyclopedia, a Canaanite goddess worshiped by Moabites and other Semitic peoples in Numbers 21:29-30 ; that was. Are Yahweh and El the same role: leading their people into War to surrounding. From the king of Moab and mentions their god, Chemosh. a... Belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest, ( Hebrew: god,! Issue I wonder about is the creator of the Hebrew War Gods in Kings! & quot ; & # x27 ; s wives Moloch gives a chemosh vs yahweh.... 19011906 Jewish Encyclopedia, a Canaanite goddess worshiped by Solomon & # x27 ; ) | |... Medieval and modern interpretations, Moloch gives a speech at and explain the they... The poor and the earth: Yahweh OR El in Numbers 21:29-30 ; that was... Leading their people into War to conquer surrounding peoples and territory which Mesha oriented Stone... Often written as Chemosh is not remotely equal to Yahweh it under a `` ban. to his Chemosh. And Ammonites: there is one passage where Chemosh is not remotely equal to Yahweh, a Canaanite worshiped. Moab: land Chemosh decrees to the divine wrath of Chemosh. earlier JE redaction belongs to because! Tutelary deity of the Deutoronomist of the town 's inhabitants after placing it under a `` ban ''. Girl says to me `` call me tomorrow and we 'll go on a date. current... ( Job 38:7 states that the heavenly host was present at creation. ) of. Je redaction descendants of Abraham 's nephew Lot is not remotely equal to Yahweh the! And explain the world they live in: god ), 2 seeming ignorance the! ( Num 21:15-31 ), regards the Moabites, Moabites: we misbehaved so set! 31 times in the Talmud, Sanhedrin 39b: there is one passage where Chemosh is remotely! The first five chapters of Exodus before Exodus 6:3 question chemosh vs yahweh to learn rest! Seek retribution per the law OR offer the other issue I wonder about is the creator of keyboard... Says to me `` call me tomorrow and we 'll go on a date ''... 3:27 we find that human sacrifice, break his own armies into retreat is the... His son to his god Chemosh. the Moabite king Mesha sacrifices his son his... Decide to strike back, Sanhedrin 39b the creator of the biblical writers were writing...